My name is Ronald Robert Parmele. I’m 72 years old. I am not a Preacher, Teacher or Prophet. I’m just an, imperfect, old warn out guy who loves the Adventist people. I was raised a fourth Generation Seventh Day Adventist, on both sides of my family. I only went to Adventist schools. I managed Academy Industries for nearly ten years. I was baptized into the truth, was schooled in the truth, married in the truth, schooled my four children in the truth. I planned to die in the truth, so help me God. I was kicked out of the truth at the Hillsboro, Oregon, Seventh Day Adventist church in 1982, because they no longer believed I was in the truth.I loved Ellen White. I had been at her home in Battle Creek.
I was in the upstairs bedroom where I was told, by the guide that her angel had stood, right there by that table, and guided her hand as she wrote The Great Controversy because she only had a 3rd grade education.
I have been at Ellen White's home near Pacific Union College (where my daughter was going to college to become a bible-worker). I saw where they rolled Ellen White out on the balcony in her wheel chair so she could get the sunshine before she died.
I went to the graveyard in Battle Creek to see where the White family had been buried. To me it was holy ground. I gloried in it all.
We were the Remnant Church, God's Chosen People. All other churches were Babylon. I was so proud. We had the Seal of God (Sabbath) and the Testimonies of Jesus (Ellen White). We had the "Truth".
I had seen the homestead of my great grandfather near Battle Creek. I saw Cedar Lake Academy where my mothers father had gone to school. I even saw the two story outhouse.
I saw the old Battle Creek Sanitarium, then a government building of some kind.
A Sword of Fire Hung over Battle Creek; http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw71.htm
SDA ACTIONS AGAINST KELLOGG; http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6434097767490329654&q=&hl=en
Interview between Elder G. W. Amadon, Elder A. C. Bourdeau, and Dr. John Harvey Kellogg; http://www.ex-sda.com/john.htm
I had taken a tour of the Kellogg Cereal factory, I went to the Dime Tabernacle church and Camp-meeting at Lansing Michgan where I met the remaining members of my Adventist grandfather's Willis family (my mothers father). I was truly blessed to have had such a great heritage. I was at peace. If only I had not started to study!
I know many of you are going to think I'm bitter, over my past relationship, with the church. I'm not! I had the best parents in the world. I loved everyone of my teachers, I loved my Academy years. My classmates are the dearest friends I have. I love my heritage. I would not have taken the time to write about it on this site if I was not proud of it. I know that they all believed we were in the only true church. But, I had to know for sure. I was afraid at first. I had heard and read all the condemnation that Ellen White and the church leaders heaped on all those that dared to question them or Ellen White. I had studied religion all of my life, it left me high and dry. I wasn't happy, I wasn't sure I'd be saved. If Adventism wasn't right nothing else was. If you feel that way. Please before you go any farther watch at least one of these videos;
It took 28 years to gain the nerve to publish this material. I'm an old man now and time is running out, I don't have another 28 years. You need to know Christ is coming soon. You need to know that God loves you, that His promises are sure.
I didn't know how to study any other way than to start with the writings of Ellen White and the church so I bought nearly all her books, the small thick Spiritual Gifts books, Early Writings, all nine of her Testimonies', a full set of the conflict series, a lot of the compilations of her books and a full set of the Commentaries. I had all three of her Great Controversy books. It began to bother me that she had changed them. Why would she need to if her angel was by her side guiding her hand as she wrote? I found an old copy of D.M.Canrights book you can get it online free here;
I now knew which historical documents, to ask the White Estates for. After I told them I was willing to take them to court to get them, they started sending me a few. One day I got a call from a Mr. Olson, (not the Mr. Olson of the White Estates). This guy was not an Adventist. He told me, as a young man, Ballenger and he were good friends and Ballenger's wife had given him Ballenger's files after he died. He said, the White Estates had wanted to buy them for years, but he would never sell them to the White Estates because they would destroy them. He was 81 years old, at the time he called me. Someone from the White Estates had to have told him I was looking for old documents and that I may want to buy them. I asked if someone from White Estates had told him, he said yes but wouldn't tell me who it was.
He sold me the Ballenger files. They contained a lot of old letters and the earliest Ellen White booklets etc. I read them all night long for a week. You can get them all, word for word, on the internet now for free at;
It would be a mistake for you to make these sites, or the people who have put them up the problem. It's the documentation that they present that needs to be questioned and answered by the church. That's the purpose of this site. You, as members, need to understand what to ask of your leaders. What makes this site different is the fact that I have written my reasons for asking the questions. You need your own reasons.
After reading all the documentation and all the early booklets she wrote, I now knew the changes they made in her writings and all the failed prophecies she had made. I also understood why the church was hiding them.
After listening to a tape that a church member had given me. I went to see Walter Rae, at Walla Walla College one weekend. At the last minute the college was told not to let him speak, so a public school was rented and all the students and most of the faculty went over there. I later was able to buy a set of nine cassette tapes of the meeting he had with the General Conf. Committee that met with him to see his evidence that Ellen White copied, they already knew she did, but not to the extent Walter had found. Why had they not told us?
They voted that Walter Rae be given a leave of absence from his church to study the "Desire of Ages" and to put his work on the "Great Controversy" into a more professional form and someone be hired to help him. They voted to no longer hide it under the carpet but make it known to the members. That did not happen. Walter was fired.
The man they hired to study the "Desire Of Ages" was Fred Veltman, they thought they could control him so the outcome would show that Ellen White didn't copy that book. You need to decide for yourself by reading the report. Go to;
So what happen to Walter Rae?
Did he put his study in a more professional form?
"The Truth About The White Lie" by Ellen G. White Estate First published August 1982. Revised January 1999.
Pastors can't agree; Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D. Retired Professor of Theology, Andrews University;
We had been taught that all of her prophecies had come true, or soon would, that she had written all of her books as her angel guided her hand. That her helpers only corrected her spelling and punctuation. I needed answers.
About this time the Dr. Davenport 29 million dollar bankruptcy against the church was going on. My accountant worked for the firm that audited the North Pacific Union's books each year. He showed me what was going on from the 1980 Financial statement. They had been hiding click on; "THE DAVENPORT LOANS" as an asset in the "Agency and Demand Fund". Also the Oregon Conference Attorney was a member of the Gaston church and a friend of mine. He told me that 1/2 million dollars from the "Tithe Reserve Fund" had been used in building the new Oregon Conference office building. They had loaned Davenport the building fund with the promise he would pay it back when they needed it. He went bankrupt before he paid it back so they had to use the tithe reserve fund to pay the bills and keep building. They simply exchanged the Tithe fund for a non-tithe fund and gave it to Davenport claiming no tithe funds were used. The money had not been paid back at the time they were saying no tithe funds had been used. I had gotten a list of all the people who had invested in Dr. Davenport and the huge percentages they had been repaid for their personal investments. It read like a Who's Who in Adventist Leadership clear up to the General Conference President. For more on the aftermath go here; http://www.advmca.org/articles/Exchange%20with%20GC.htm
You can read the manuscript of a book, written by Walter Rea about it. The book was never published as part of a deal made with Walter Rae to get his retirement - I believe. Walter sent me a copy of the manuscript, which was later lost in the mail after 9/11. The book was called; "Pirates of Privilege" you can read a poorly scanned copy of it now on the internet for free at:
My faith in God's Chosen People was fast passing. I needed answers.
When Desmond Ford was fired for not believing in the Investigative Judgment.
To understand what was going on at the time listen to the videos of Walter Rae and Desmond Ford being interviewed on the The John Ankerberg Show at;
I had watched this at the time. I needed answers.
All we were getting from, The Leadership, was God told Ellen White which stuff to copy and no tithe funds were taken and we needed to pay a double tithe for a few years.
When no one would answer my questions, I decided to put it all out of my mind and quietly go my way. I stopped going to the Hillsboro SDA church, and started going to a non-denominational church with my second wife. I couldn't believe the difference. They studied the Bible only.
When I was asked by the Hillsboro SDA pastor, Elder Whitehead, if I wanted to have my name removed from the books, I said, "why do you ask?" He said; they were cleaning up their membership books, and my name had come up. He said; that the church board meeting was in a week. I asked; if I had the right to be there and speak for myself? He seemed surprised I would want to be. He said, "yes, I guess you do."
So I was there with all my questions and documentation. The Pastor said, the Church handbook said, they had to let me speak for myself, I was there to defend myself. He invited me up front. I asked them my questions and showed them my documentation. They had never heard of the things or read the documentation I was reading to them before. They were shocked to say the least. They asked me questions from 7:30 until midnight. I kept showing them all the documentation to support my claims.
When Pastor Whitehead asked. If I believed Ellen G. White was as inspired as any other Bible writer. I said, "Of course not; after showing you all this documentation do you?" The pastor had been wanting to take a vote for a couple hours, as it was getting really late. Everyone asked him to answer my questions. He said, he wished he could, as he knew many people had the same questions I had, but he didn't have the answers. Oh! how he wished he hadn't called me. I'm sure that was a board meeting he'll never forget. If you have come to the same beliefs as I have, never give up with out a fight, it's not for you, but for all the members that are asleep to the facts and documentation. They simply have never seen or heard it before. It's your responsibility to show them.
As it turns out the leadership of the church didn't believe Ellen White was inspired after she died. They met in 1919 to discuss the matter. Read about here.
Prescott Letter to W.C. White; http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/prescot2.htm
I still needed answers.
I said, "To say Ellen White was the “Messenger of the Lord” meant she was speaking for God Almighty. I couldn’t see that as being any different than the Pope claiming to speak for God." Maybe you can? I could not! To me it was blasphemy! I had many Godly teachers. I was taught in SDA schools not to lie. I simply had studied my way out of Adventism. I still haven't gotten any answers.
The pastor asked me if I believed I had to be a member of the Seventh Day Adventist church in order to be saved. I said, "No". He said, "You all heard him, so lets take a vote". They didn't want to if I still wanted to be a member. I said, "Look, thanks for letting me talk. If any of you had been able to answer my questions, I would still want to be a member. They voted to take my name off the books. I said thanks, now I know God wants me to move on with my life. Good-by and God bless you."
My friends and classmates talked to me for another hour in the parking lot. It was hard to say good-bye. I was forty three years old, yet I cried all the way home. I have tears in my eyes just writing about it now twenty six years later. It's not because I feel sorry for myself. I'm sorry no one had the answers. I truly love my Adventist family, classmates and friends. I want so much to see them in heaven.
I realized I would never get any answers from the church, so the search for answers had to be my doing; no one else could do it for me. I don't know why it took me so long to realize that was, and is, the only answer for everyone. No one can do it for you.
That's what this site is all about, but it's my journey not yours. It's my hope that my journey will be of some help to you, but you must take the journey on your own. God will guide you into all "Truth". Be willing to follow Him where ever that may be. You must put away all your preconceived "ideas"; your bias. Put aside your Ellen White books for a while and study your Bible only. It may take some getting use to. But the only real Truth is in His word.
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The coming of Christ is near!
The spirit of God is begging you to get ready. You must study your bible like never before. Before you start reading this web site, please turn off your television, get your Bible out and follow along. It will take your full attention! Read every verse I quote, and read the whole chapter before and after. You must get a clear understanding. Never take my word for it or anyone else‘s. If I’m wrong about all of this, I will die a lost man. I know that. What If you are wrong?
You must decide, you must think for yourself. The minister can’t do it for you. 3abn or the Hope channel can’t think for you. You and you alone must decide. Your destiny is on the line. Is the God you serve real or not? Can your God foretell the future? If He can’t He’s not God! Can Ellen G. White foretell the future? If not she is a false prophet and is not to be feared or believed. It’s a test between her and God Almighty. You must make the choice. Whom will you serve?
It’s the least of my worries what people will think of me. But, God will hold you accountable for whom you worship. I’m no writer! I’m not the smartest guy in the world either, but I can’t sit by and not warn you of what’s ahead. I love the Lord God Almighty with all my heart and soul. I stopped being a Seventh day Adventist, and without knowing it, I became a Seven day Christian. It’s kind of like an Amway salesmen, who can’t stop talking about their products.
The Lord is always on my mind. I can’t stop talking about His prophesies and, dear friends of mine, God is about to fulfill every last one of them. If you really believed that some one knew the future and the future meant life or death to your friends, wouldn’t you tell them? It’s all in His Word. It’s coming like a thief in the night! Please wake up! Please, let me do my best to prove it to you. We are to test the Prophets to see if they are of God. You can’t go wrong by obeying Gods Word. The world is racing headlong into the greatest time of trouble mankind has ever faced. I’m not the one saying it. It’s in your Bible. I have listed some of the prophesies for you, in the hope that you will see that God is real. He alone knows the future.
He means what He says, and says what He means!
WE CAN’T CHANGE IT!
More than anything else, you who have never been outside the bounds of the Adventist faith, need to know what other churches think of your beliefs. I hope this website will inform you. I’ve written this study in the form of questions. I have also stated my reason for asking those questions. They are my reasons as I see it. I don’t want you to take my reasons as the final word on the subject. You must be able to give an answer to these questions on your own. There are many texts in the bible, which I have not quoted, on the subject. You must hunt for them to form your own answers. All I would ask is that you use the bible as your main source for truth. Read all the history, concordances, dictionaries and religious books you want but only if they agree with the bible. We were taught that Ellen G. White was as inspired as any other bible writer. She claimed to be, the lesser light, helping us to understand the Greater light the bible. I now look at her writings as a flashlight looking for the sun. Go directly to the Greater Light.
From my youth I have been asking questions. I remember asking dad where I came from once and he told me to go ask mom. I did and she said I came from her belly. I asked her how I got in there. I once asked dad why a black calf had a white face. Dad told me it was because its mother was a Hereford and its daddy was an Angus bull. I then asked if a black man and white woman had a baby would the baby have a white face. Dad told me I asked too many questions. Dad would get tired of me asking questions he couldn’t answer and would say; “IT’S SO - BECAUSE I SAID IT'S SO.” I asked, "But dad, why so?"
I started asking my School Teachers, Sabbath School Teachers and Pastors questions about our church. They would say; "IT’S SO BECAUSE ELLEN WHITE SAID, IT’S SO." I’m sorry that not good enough anymore. So I asked the Biblical Research Inst., and the President of the General Conference of Seventh Day Adventist himself. They won’t even take the time to read my questions let alone answer them.
Most respond by wanting me to buy a book that Ellen White or someone else wrote on the subject. I’ve have already read most of them. That was my problem they were only trying to make the bible fit what Ellen White had said. That's why the Biblical Research committee set up "The Daniel Committee" to try and make the Investigative Judgment biblical. Raymond Cottrell was the leader, I would think you would want to read his last sermon, before his death.
My closest friends, who have read my questions and my reasons for asking them, respond as follows;
1. Ron, you always took things too seriously, I never believed that stuff. I do believe Adventist are the closest to the Truth though. I believe the Sabbath. I’ll always be SDA.
2. I can’t answer your questions, I’ve never read Josephus or The Coming Prince etc. and I don’t have the time. Anyway, if it has nothing to do with our salvation, why worry about it? I do believe we’re right about the Sabbath.
3. The church doesn’t kick people out for not believing EGW anymore. They have made many changes. You need to come back, or you will be lost.
4. Your Adventist heritage should mean more to you. Why be so critical?
5. You need help with spelling and punctuation, other than that every Adventist needs to read your booklet, it’s right on. Great job! From an x-sda pastor, his website is;
That’s about what I expected. The one thing most of you, as members, need to worry about most is the fact that none of your leaders will even try to answer any of the questions. They simply don’t respond. The questions won’t go away; they are at the base of all the “unique” teachings of Adventism. They must be answered. They are the pillars of the SDA faith. They need not be, indeed they must not be, for they are not biblical in anyway. They affect our view of the future. Worse, they are contrary to the gospel.
The fact that we have claimed Ellen White to be the “End Time Prophet” has made it impossible to change. Yet she said, before her death,
“There are many things we must learn
and many things we must unlearn.”
The worst thing that happened to the church has been the internet. Here’s your chance to make it work for the SDA church.
I still want answers, if you can give them to me. Please do so, I‘ll put them on this website. I’ll put your answers right below my answers. I beg you to make it known to the members of the Adventist church. They desperately need answers. You are not doing it for me, but for them. Twenty years ago I asked the White Estates to please send me a list of the prophesies, our end time prophet, Ellen White had made that came true. A few years ago, they came out with “Messenger of the Lord”. Dwight Nelson sent me one for Christmas. Thanks again Dwight. In it they list 82 visions she had, out of over 2000 she claimed to have had. 82 out of 2000 isn’t very good odds. Out of the 82, 13 have been already proven false. If the questions I ask and my reasons for asking can not be answered, chances are pretty good that; NONE OF THE REST OF HER PROPHECIES WILL COME TRUE EITHER.
Born to believe it all came from God
"SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISTISM"
While a small boy I remember sitting on the front row of a movie theater that the church had rented to hold evangelistic meetings in. (They didn’t want anyone to know it was SDA) Elder Gladden was the preacher. I liked his cute little daughter Sharon. We sat on the front row together and listened to her father. We may have been in the third grade at the time. I know my folks never missed a meeting. I liked that!
I’ll never forget the image of Daniel 2 with the head of gold, the breast and arms of silver, thighs of brass and legs of iron. Its feet and ten toes were of iron mixed with clay. The head of gold was Babylon. The breast and arms of silver was Medo-Persia. The thighs of brass were Greece, and the legs of iron were Rome. The ten toes were the ten nations Rome was divided into after its fall. He told us the two legs represented pagan and papal Rome.
A few years ago, I began thinking about the two legs, pagan and papal Rome. They may have merged, but they didn’t split. Maybe it was western Rome and eastern Rome that split into. One Pope ruled in Rome and one ruled in Constantinople. The Eastern leg out lasted the Western leg by nearly 700 years. Those nations today are all Muslim. Could they be the ten nations that are mentioned in Eze. 38 and 39?
You can read what Uriah Smith wrote "The Prophecies of Daniel and Revelation" by Uriah Smith; left click on; http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/clt4/drrev9.htm
All of these kingdoms will still be around when Christ comes the second time. All have come against Israel in the past and will again in the last days. All will be destroyed at Christ coming. Today they are Iraq, (Babylon) Iran, (Persia) Western Rome, (Catholic Italy) and (The old Roman empires of the eastern leg), Greece/Turkey/Egypt/Assyrian and all the rest of the Muslim nations.
Daniel 2:44. And in the days of these kings (Eze.38,39) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
They are the seven mountains of Revelation 17:7-14.
7. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
1. Egypt, 2. Assyrian, 3. Babylon, 4. Persia, 5. Greece, had fallen by John's time. Rome is during John's vision and is later divided into two legs 6. Western Rome Catholic's, 7. Eastern Greek Orthodox, overtaken by the Muslims that were defeated in 1099 AD (deadly wound) 8. Today's Muslim world (deadly wound being healed).
11. And the beast that was, (Eastern Rome Muslims from 636-1099) and is not, even he is the eighth, (Today's Muslims) and is of the seventh, and goeth into perdition.
The beast that was Greek Orthodox Turkey was defeated by Islam, but becomes the 8th kingdom of the Muslims in the end times when they become the ten kings of Eze. 38,39.
12. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. At the Gog and Magog battle.
13. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Anti-christ
14. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
AS WALID SHOEBAT SAYS, "ALL THE NATIONS THAT ARE MENTIONED BY NAME THAT ARE CASED INTO THE PIT, IN THE END TIMES, ARE MUSLIN TODAY". Watch; Walid Shoebat under question 24.
Listen to Brigitte Gabriel at http://www.realradioactive.org/special_guest/GSX391.mp3
ELLEN WHITES "END TIMES" VISIONS
I HAVE YET TO READ, OR HAVE ANYONE SHOW ME, A TRULY SUPER-NATURAL WITHOUT DOUBT PROPHECY, THAT ELLEN WHITE MADE THAT CAME TRUE. IF YOU CAN PLEASE SEND IT TO ME.
You may read SDA replies so far by left clicking on the underlined below.
SDA Reply; Doctor Rick Cabero from the Alaska Conference" I answered you not as SDA Church or an Alaska Conference representative. I answered you representing myself.
A good SDA website in support of Ellen White visions; http://www.seventh-day.org/testsofproph.htm and http://www.ellenwhitedefend.com/test_of_prophet.htm
My answer to the above websites is; http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw35.htm You be the judge.
Think of the impact it would have made on all the people at that meeting if Elder Gladden could have read, prophecy after prophecy, from the “End Time Prophet”, Ellen White. WW2 had just ended. So I think I have good reason to ask, why didn't she have anything to say about WWI and WWII?
WORLD WAR ONE WORLD WAR TWO
click on SDA answers below;
SDA Answers: My name is Bob Pickle, and I reside near Halstad, MN.
ONE OF THE BEST SITES TO DEFEND ELLEN WHITE IS; http://www.ellenwhitedefend.com/index.htm
THE BEST DOCUMENTED SITE ABOUT ELLEN WHITE IS; http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/
Wouldn’t an end time prophet have foretold about six million Jews being killed?
Why wouldn’t she have mentioned the Atom Bomb?
What if she had foretold about tanks and ships?
What if she had foretold about airplanes?
Why didn’t she foretell about Missiles, Rockets and men going to the moon?
Click; SDA ANSWER;
Radar, Radio, TV, Computers,
What if she had said, Israel will be a nation again instead of saying we replace the Jews and “Jerusalem would never be built up again” EW. Pg. 75.
Photo of Jerusalem taken in 1920
Click; What Ellen White wrote;
If Ellen White had foretold about any of these things, think of the millions who would have accepted her as a true prophet. Common sense should tell you she was not an "End Time Prophet"
What we got instead was the 2300 days and Investigative Judgment. I had to draw the whole 2300 days, chart of Daniel 8:14, while in Church Doctrines class at Laurelwood Academy. I was good at art and got an “A” on the chart. Now, I think back on it and realize, I didn’t have a clue, as to why it was, as I had drawn it. If I had drawn it any other way, I would have gotten an “F”. I had drawn it as I was told. I didn’t even begin to think about it for myself. Most of us, even today, don’t read the whole text. Why not? Well! You say, the text is upon the screen, we don’t have the time to read the whole text. Right you are! There’s a reason for that today. In years past, it wasn’t so clear; many SDA preachers thought they were giving us the truth. Not anymore. Most Adventist scholars, teachers, and preachers today know full well they are not telling you the truth. To prove it ask them to answer these questions.
Laurelwood Academy, Mr. Holmes holding chart
Famous 1844 chart
We need to take a closer look at this chart again later. Okay?
Now after all of these years I have a lot of questions about this chart, and the whole 1844 belief. In this site are my questions. These questions are designed to make you think about your beliefs. No one has the right to question another persons belief if they can't state their REASON FOR ASKING THE QUESTION.
2005 Ellen White Summit
ADVENTIST CHURCHES ???
For a Seventh Day Adventist there are now at least three options. You can now be a baptized member and hold any of these beliefs.
CLICK ON THE ABOVE TO LEARN THE DIFFERENCE. WHICH ONE DO YOU CLAIM TO BE?
The Historic approach was taught up until the 1980's. Thousands were kicked-out for no longer believing it. If many, great Godly leaders, pastors, teachers and members had been given the Evangelical choice their membership would not have been dropped from the Seventh Day Adventist church. But, they may have stopped studying. I'm so glad God didn't let that happen. You'll never understand why other Christians believe the way they do until you're outside of Adventism. You'll find out where I stand, relating to these three options, toward the end of this study.
I was hoping when the, 2005 Ellen White Summit took place I would hear just what position the church had taken. Listen to the summit at the following links. Watch all 1-8 videos. There are eight hours of talks. TO WATCH THE SUMMIT "LEFT CLICK" ON EACH HOUR BELOW; (wait it will come up. You really need DSL)
1.http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9085323260620531077&q=ELLEN+WHITE+SUMMIT&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1 George Knight
It appears they have gone Progressive, or are heading in that direction. The Historic Adventist are now the fanatics.
When I was baptized in 1952 we had to come up front and sit on the front row while the pastor read a list of questions. We had to state in front of the church that we believed, and would follow, all the doctrines he stated;
1. We would not work from sunset Friday night until sunset Saturday night.
2. We would not join a Labor Union.
3. As kids in church school we signed a temperance pledge that we would never smoke or drink alcohol, coffee or coke. We had to reaffirm that commitment.
4. We would never go to the theater, (the same movies were okay if they were shown at church socials), play pool (except on a Carom board at home), cards (except Rook) or gamble in anyway (except for marbles).
5. We had to believe in Ellen White as a true prophet and the only infallible interpreter of the Bible.
6. We had to state that we would support the church with offerings and 1/10 of our income as tithe.
7. We would never eat unclean meat. (we would never go to heaven alive if we ate meat of any kind and our prayers would never be answered).
8. We would dress as Christians. (The women couldn't wear pants and had to wear long brown socks. No sleeveless or see through blouses. They could wear pants only under their dress if they were working. Their dresses had to be below the knees).
9. We would never ware jewelry.
10. We would never marry out of the Truth, or send our children to non-SDA church schools.
11. We wouldn't go to the dance hall. (skating rink was okay and pupil swimming pool was okay)
12. We would never cuss or take the name of the Lord in vain.
And a whole lot more I can't think of anymore. There's 28, very differently worded, questions now.
EVERY CHURCH LEADER, PASTOR AND TEACHER NEEDS TO KNOW ALL SIDES OF AN ISSUE IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM. YOU CAN'T SOLVE ANYTHING, BE IT RELIGIOUS OR SECULAR, WITHOUT THIS UNDERSTANDING. THIS SITE IS FOR THAT PURPOSE.
To go to the top leading Historic Adventist websites;
http://www.originaldavidianmessage.org/index.shtml Click on Dan.2, at top right corner. Be sure to listen to all 24 short segments. You'll understand what the writings of Ellen White has done for the Historic Seventh Day Adventist church.
I found another group that call themselves REFORM ADVENTIST they write;
The Seven Faces of Seventh-day Adventism.
All of the above sites believe Ellen White is as inspired as any other bible writer. They all claim to be the only true Seventh Day Adventist church.
What do Adventists believe? Go ask what language was spoken by the people after the Lord confused their tongues at Babel. Adventism is a second Babel.... But Seventh-day Adventists say "We are united; we believe alike." Partly true, but they are only one branch of this Advent Babel..... Such a brood of errors and heresies as has resulted from Adventism, cannot be found in the history of the church before. Gracious! And these are the people sent with a "message" to warn the world! They had better go back and learn and agree on what their "message" is, before they run to deliver it.
THE BATTLE IS STILL RAGES TODAY; http://www.qod.andrews.edu/downloads.html
THE PROBLEM STILL REMAINS YOU CAN'T DO AWAY WITH ALL OF THE EGW STATEMENTS;
“As the son of man was perfect in His life, so His followers are to be PERFECT in their life. A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gates of the Holy City… In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen… “THE FAITH I LIVE BY” pg.44.
“Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter.” MY LIFE TODAY, pg. 271
“We can overcome. Yes; entirely. Jesus died to make a way of escape for us, that we might overcome evil temper, every sin. Every temptation…” 1T pg.144.
“Not even a thought did He, yield to temptation. So it may be with us.” Desire of Ages, pg 123.
“In order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning.” Signs of the times” Mar. 3, 1898
“To be redeemed means to cease from sin.” Review and Herald Sept. 25, 1900.
“…. conversion is not complete until he attains to perfection of Christian character.” 2T pg.505.
“Human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character.” Acts of Apostles, pg. 531.
“Perfection of character is attainable by every one who strives for it.” Selected Messages Vol.1, pg. 212
“Every man’s work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven sent warning or reproofs, neglected wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or evil, with it’s far reaching results; all are chronicled by the recording Angel.” GC. Pg. 482 And the list goes ON and ON!
All the Historic Adventist believe it won't be long and they alone will be the144,000 perfect Remnant Historic Adventist that are left. They believe you must leave the Babylon, Progressive, Evangelical, Seventh Day Adventist church NOW, and join them, before the Pope brings in the Sunday law and the death decree. They maybe right. That's what the church taught us for years. Why change now? You must decide.
After watching all eight videos, of the Ellen White summit, I still don't get it. Am I to believe that only the thoughts of Ellen White were inspired, and not necessarily her words? How do you put your thoughts on paper without using words? Are we to take only the words her angel told her? Who decides which thoughts are inspired? Maybe they should come out with a red letter edition.
It's not the copying, that I find problems with, it's that she claimed it all came from God;
“God was speaking through clay. You might say that this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the Spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been shown me. In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper, expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision --the precious rays of light shining from the throne…”
(letter to Dr. Paulson; St. Helena, California, June 14, 1906, Selected Messages pp 24—37)
After hearing George Knight say, during the Q@A section, that a whole lot of bible prophecies never came true either. I wondered why I should believe the bible at all, for that is the test of a true prophet. No! friends, it is not true that all Bible prophecy is conditional. If you haven't taken God at His word, to you it is conditional. But today Bible prophecy is being fulfilled right before our eyes and Adventist can't see it because it doesn't fit Ellen Whites visions of the end times.
We will go through these prophecies in the questions that are on this site. When Ellen Whites past prophecies failed they called them conditional. Yet today all of her future prophecies make the bible prophecies unfulfillable, so they have made the bible prophecies conditional too.
We're supposed to use common sense. We'll talk about the common sense issues, as we go along, because I agree with that statement. Maybe an example of thought inspiration is "THE CLEAR WORD BIBLE". The verbal words from God were taken out and Ellen Whites inspired thoughts where put in, right? Who decided?
Do you get the point? You can now get around any statement by simply claiming it was verbal and not thought out. Whoa! That don't make common sense to me.
For a Great story to illustrate what the summit was like;
OKAY! YOU SAID, YOU WANTED TO ANSWER OUR QUESTIONS.
HERE IS A BIG ONE !
SHOULD WE FORGET
OCT. 22, 1844
This question has yet to be answered biblically, yet more scholars, preachers and teachers, have been kicked out of the SDA church over, just asking, this question than any other. Why? We need a clear cut answer. YES or NO. Was it verbally inspired, or was it thought inspired? Did she get it from William Miller or her angel? If it was thought inspired, but her words about it weren't inspired, who gets to decide? May I give you a make believe example of what I mean?
"Last nite thile sleepin I had tought from God. I tri and tell ya that inspirited tought to you with own words. Where go's; T'was as if a lite from heavn filed the rom I twere takn up. And the tought's of broter Crower was shewn me. he were in corn filled, a vison came from God an tell him he were to tell us Jesus left wholly place in heaven and went to most wholly place in 1844." pardon me words not form God." E.G. Black.
I'm not trying to make fun of Ellen White. I've tried to read some of her handwriting. It's hard to understand the writings of a person with a third grade education. It's not to hard for me to believe her words were not inspired. Seems like common sense to me.
Here's what Crozier saw in the corn field; Day-Star Extra, February 7, 1846 BY O. R. L. Crozier;
Here's what Hiram Edson saw in the corn field;
Now that the church is more progressive, I have a few more questions for the church Leaders, Preachers, Teachers and Scholars to answer. If they won't it will soon be time for the membership to answer. PLEASE! To the historic Adventist this is a life or death matter!
BELOW IS A MUST READ FOR EVERY ADVENTIST WHO IS FACED WITH THE CHOICE, AM I LOST IF I'M NOT HISTORIC? WHAT IF I HAVE BECOME A PROGRESSIVE EVANGELICAL.?
A MUST READ; Dale Ratzlaff's (who left because he became a PROGRESSIVE EVANGELICAL) wrote an open letter to Dr. Jud Lake's (video 3) condemnation of him. Go to the 12th page of his magazine Proclamation! Click on; http://lifeassuranceministries.org/Proclamation2006_NovDec.pdf
ADVENTIST ACADEMY SPEARHEADS ATTACK AGAINST DALE RATZAFF;
I'M NOT A PART OF THIS GROUP, BUT ENJOYED LISTENING TO THEM. "FORMER ADVENTIST" WEEK END CONFERENCE 2008 AUDIO click on; http://formeradventist.com/weekends/fafweekend2008.html
Here are the books that Dr. Jud Lake refers to, in video three, as having been written by the mad, bitter, hateful, Relentless, lunatics that left the church, YOU DECIDED.
Josiah Litch's Predictions about Turkey - 1840;
Ellen White’s hand written letter to Joseph Bates dated May 13, 1847.
Joseph Bates, Second Advent Waymarks,1847, Pages 97-110;
Mrs. Lucinda Burdick - Visions of Ellen G. Harmon
H.C. Blanchard - The Testimonies of Mrs. E. G. White Compared With the Bible.
Norwich Tract 1890 "The Claims of Mrs. Ellen G. White as stated by herself, Considered from the Standpoint of Scripture.
H.E. Carver 1871- book- Mrs. E. G. White's Claims to Divine Inspiration Examined
Charles Lee 1876 -book- THREE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS FOR SDA's TO CONSIDER
Miles Grant 1877 -book- An Examination of Mrs. Ellen White's Visions
D. M. Canright - (Minster and A state conf. President)
B. F. SNOOK & WM. H. BRINKERHOFF- (BF Snookwas President of the Iowa Conference)
Jones, E.B. - Publishing house mgr. (missionary to India)
Jones, A.T. - (1888 Messenger)
Waggoner, E.J. - (1888 Messenger)
To get most of the books Jones and Waggoner wrote free online go to;
History of Jones and Waggoner in Oregon;
Adventist Claims against;
John H. Kellogg- (founder of medical work for SDA) World renowned surgeon, inventor of dry cereal.
Present Adventist view of Kellogg;
Albion F. Ballenger- 1909- Cast Out for the Cross of Christ (was Conf. President in Ireland)
Edward S. Ballenger- (Albion brother)
Clara Endicott Sears, 1924- Days of Delusion – A Strange Bit of History
"NEW" DENNIS J. FISCHER, The “Truth” Re-examined - February, 2008A MUST READ http://www.truthorfables.com/BEYOND%20ADVENTISM.pdf
Common Sense tells me these people weren't DUMMIES.
WHAT THE SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH HAS MANAGED TO DO, IN DEFENDING ELLEN WHITE'S INSPIRATION, IS MAKE THE BIBLE UNINSPIRED, UNRELIABLE, AND UNBELIEVABLE. IS THAT WHY SO MANY WHO LEAVE, DON'T BELIEVE THE BIBLE ANYMORE AND WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION, PERIOD?
It may be hard for some of you to get it, but if none of the "unique doctrines" of the Seventh Day Adventist church originated with Ellen White, but were the thoughts of other's, the shut door, the bride groom cometh in 7 yrs., the Investigative Judgment and the Sabbath. Common sense ought to tell you it came from men.
We were taught that we could prove all our doctrines from the Bible only. If you can't answer even one of the questions I have posted on this site, without using Ellen White, then you must realize the SDA church is in trouble.
THEY DON'T USE THE BIBLE TEXTS I POST IN MY REASONS FOR ASKING THE QUESTIONS. CHECK IT OUT. GO TO THE INDEX TO ELLEN WHITE'S WRITINGS, SEE IF SHE USES ANY OF THE TEXTS. WHY NOT?
FOR THOSE WHO HAVE LONGED TO SEE CHANGE WITHIN THE SDA CHURCH. WHO HATED TO SEE THEIR BELOVED PASTORS, TEACHERS AND FAMILY MEMBERS KICKED OUT. To get a partial list go to;
MOST HATED TO SEE NEW MEMBERS COME TO CHRIST ONLY TO SEE THEM LEAVE THE CHURCH OUT THE BACK DOOR. TO LEARN THAT 1,500,000 MEMBERS LEFT IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS WAS HEART BREAKING. TO HEAR THAT THE PER-CAPITA TITHE HAD DROPPED BY 75% WAS UNBELIEVABLE. TO LEARN THE CHURCH WAS TAKEN OVER SILENTLY BY A CORRUPT, TOP HEAVY, click on; HIERARCHICAL SYSTEM, WHICH THIS WAS NEVER VOTED ON BY THE MEMBERSHIP, IT WAS HARD FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND. THE LINKS BELOW REVEAL THE PROBLEM;
"New" What the Members for Church Accountability has to say;
The church leaders would have you believe the members who leave remain believers in the SDA message. They don't realize it's their own historic Adventism's, once hidden, documentations that are now opened for the world to read on the internet that are the problem. To read their own report on this go to; http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/other_documents/conserving-gains.html?&template=printer.html
IF THE QUESTIONS ON THIS WEBSITE ARE NOT ANSWERED BIBLICALLY, WITHOUT THE USE OF ELLEN WHITE, THERE WILL NEVER BE AN END TO THE OUT-FLOW OF MEMBERS, WHO WANT THE TRUTH, FULL TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH. THAT ONLY COMES FROM THE BIBLE.
YOU CAN BE THANKFUL FOR THOSE, WHO GOD GAVE COMMON SENSE, FOR NOT GIVING UP ON THEIR ADVENTIST LOVED ONES. WHO WROTE BOOKS AND CREATED WEBSITES, SO YOU COULD READ THE LONG HIDDEN DOCUMENTS. THEY HAVE BROUGHT THE SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH TO A MORE PROGRESSIVE EVANGELICAL UNDERSTANDING. MOST OF THESE WEBSITE CREATORS HAVE BEEN DEMONIZED, BEEN KICKED OUT OF THE CHURCH AND HATED BY THEIR PAST FRIENDS. IT'S THEY WHO FACE THE mad, bitter, hateful, lunatics! BELIEVE ME IT IS RELENTLESS! YOU THANK GOD, BECAUSE GOD WILL NOT GIVE UP ON YOU EITHER.
There are still questions that need to be answered.
This is a plea from the heart, take it serious!
DO NOT READ THIS WEBSITE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO STUDY IT IN-DEPTH. THERE IS A COLLEGE EDUCATION WORTH OF MATERIAL ON IT. YOU WON'T GET MOST OF THIS MATERIAL IN ANY ADVENTIST COLLEGE. WHAT YOU WILL LEARN IS BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUES. YOU'LL LEARN WHAT OTHER SCHOLARS' THINK OF YOUR BELIEFS. IF THE SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST LEADERSHIP WILL ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS YOU'LL GET THEIR DEFENSE OF THEIR FAITH. IF THEY WON'T YOU NEED TO DEFEND IT YOURSELF. BUT YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND BOTH SIDES IN ORDER TO DO THAT. THAT'S WHAT THIS SITE IS ALL ABOUT. IT WILL TAKE YOU TWO HOURS JUST TO READ MY QUESTIONS AND MY REASON FOR ASKING. DO THAT FIRST, THEN FOLLOW THE LINKS, THAT WILL TAKE YOU FOREVER, I'VE BEEN STUDYING IT FOR 26 YEARS AND GOD IS NOT THROUGH WITH ME YET. GOD BLESS YOU FOREVER.
I WANT THE LEADERSHIP TO REALIZE THAT ONE DAY THEY WILL STAND BEFORE, THE KING OF KINGS, TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS.
1. WHY DID YOU TAKE AWAY THE MINISTERIAL LICENSE OF PASTORS WHO COULDN'T BELIEVE IN THE HISTORIC VIEW OF ADVENTISM ANYMORE, WHILE NOW LETTING THEM REMAIN?
2. WHY DID YOU TAKE AWAY THEIR MEANS OF LIVELIHOOD, HONOR, RESPECT, AND THEIR PENSION. WHY DID YOU DEMONIZE THEM SO?
3. WHY DID YOUR COLLEGES FAIL STUDENTS WHO DIDN'T ANSWER THE QUESTIONS YOU TAUGHT THEM ABOUT THE 2300 DAY CHART CORRECTLY. MANY GAVE UP THEIR THEOLOGY DEGREES.
4. WHY DID YOU HIDE SO MANY DOCUMENTS FROM YOUR MEMBERS?
WHAT YOU'LL LEARN ON THIS WEBSITE IS JUST HOW CLOSE WE ARE TO, THE TRIAL OF ALL TRIALS, "THE COMING OF THE LORD" TO DEFEND YOUR FOOLISH, UNSCRIPTURAL, "UNIQUE DOCTRINES" .
I WOULD WORRY MOST ABOUT STANDING BEFORE GOD, THE JUDGE OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, AND TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHY YOU CHANGED THE BIBLE TO SUPPORT YOUR PROPHET. WHY YOU HAD TO TEACH ELLEN WHITES VIEW THAT GOD REALLY DIDN'T MEAN WHAT HE PROMISED TO THE JEWS IT WAS ALL FOR THE ADVENTIST INSTEAD.
WE AS MEMBERS WERE TAUGHT WE WOULD HAVE TO STAND BEFORE JUDGE AND JURY TO DEFEND OUR "UNIQUE DOCTRINES". THE QUESTIONS, I ASK ON THIS WEBSITE, ARE THE SAME QUESTIONS YOU'LL BE ASKED BY THE PROSECUTING ATTORNEY. YOU WILL THEN BE ASKED TO RESPOND TO THE SAME REASONS I STATE FOR ASKING THE QUESTIONS. YOU NEED TO FIND AN ANSWER TO THEM NOW BEFORE IT'S TO LATE. GOD WILL NOT BRING TO YOUR MIND YOUR SDA ANSWERS. YOU'LL NEED GOOD BIBLE ANSWERS. LEARN THEM NOW.
May I give you my reasons for asking?
You'll find my reason below each question.